Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/06/1997 03:05 PM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 146 - PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING Number 0053 CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the first item on the agenda was HB 146, "An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary students; and providing for an effective date." He said this was the second hearing on this bill. Number 0084 CARL ROSE, Executive Director, Association of Alaska School Boards, said he appreciated the emphasis behind HB 146 to examine the issue of student competency. He wished to share some concerns about the bill with the committee. "Our ability to address student competency is at the root of what, everything that we do. And if student learning is in fact what we're trying to accomplish, in our focus in the state, student competency is what we want to spend our time and attention. I think I would like to propose to you that you exam student competency, not from an exit exam in the twelfth year, but in a comprehensive fashion." MR. ROSE said, "As many of you know we have voluntary standards that are before us in many of the areas that you state here. My concern would be that if we had a process that aligned our school districts, through their curriculum, to address these standards in such a fashion that we address the professional development of our professional staff to prepare them to deliver that curriculum and then invest it in, in an assessment that accurately measured the progress at grades 4, 8 and 11. I think, now, we have the making of a comprehensive program that will examine the progress that is being made, where remediation should be addressed and how we go about addressing that in more of a, in a, systemic fashion." MR. ROSE said, "My concern would be that to simply a put a, a competency test as a final step that does create some problems. I don't suggest that it's, it's totally bad idea because I think student competency is a concern. But I think the way we go about addressing the issue could, could be enhanced by a more progressive approach system wide. I think we have the wherewithal to do that with a, with standards that have been adopted. I've, I've examined them, I've worked with them closely, I think they're appropriate. The question would, would have to be what be the appropriate measure that suggests; what is it we want our kids to know, how do we know that they are obtaining those skills, what is the curriculum in place to address that and the whole issue of professional development. We have a system now, in terms of certification, that allows people to be certified to teach in school based on their elementary and secondary certification. What we are going to be asking for in these standards, and with this assessment, will be specific areas of knowledge and what have we done to prepare this current work force to address the needs that we may be requiring of them? I think it is an important issue; how do we prepare our people to focus on what we think is important, how do we assist them through the curriculum, curriculum development process, and what would be the measure, an accurate measure, based on Alaska's needs." Number 0304 MR. ROSE said, "So, in closing, I would just say if we took a look at the issue of student competency, not necessarily from an exit exam, but from an entire systemic point of view and take a look at what we expect our kids to know at the fourth, eighth and eleventh grade. How we could be assured that they were receiving the instruction in an appropriate fashion and how we measure it, I think, is critical. So, with that I would say I appreciate your efforts to take a look at student competency. I think there are ways that we can go about doing it and these ways will cost money. Didn't want to leave you without bringing up the money issue, right? But, but my concern would be that if we really want to accomplish something and it may have some costs involved, do we ignore what we really want to accomplish because of the dollars or do we look at that as an investment and move forward and try and accomplish that. I will try to answer any questions you might have, Mr. Chairman." Number 0356 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN thought he heard Mr. Rose express concern about whether the current teachers would be able to teach our children what they need to know. Number 0389 MR. ROSE said, "I think we have excellent teachers in our classrooms right now. The question has to be, what is it that they are going to be asked to teach. And if we describe that through curriculum, what are we doing to prepare our people to best address that curriculum through professional development. We have quality people in our classrooms right now, but if you are asking them to accomplish something, what are we doing to prepare them to do that." Number 0412 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if we, as an educational system, have been pumping out students, then why don't we know what is going to be expected of a student in grades 4, 8 or 11 in order to compete nationally. It should have been something that was incumbent on our system from its inception. If Alaska is pumping out in one direction and the nation is going the other way, we should know this. We should know what students need to accomplish to be competitive in science, math, English and other core subjects. Number 0467 MR. ROSE said, "As I take a look at the system right now, we have varying degrees of assessment, in terms of how we're progressing. What we're suggesting with the standards that are, have been adopted, is that we agree that there are certain things that our kids should, should know and there should be a measure as to, at what points they should know it. We don't currently have an assessment that really identifies that. The other thing would be this whole issue curriculum development, we currently do that now based on a local level, the whole idea behind the standards were to give people the voluntary initiative to step out and make some progress and some of our school districts have. But, I will tell you that these are being done on limited funds in certain pockets across the state." MR. ROSE said, "As you well know, many have told you, many of our school districts suffer under the weight of a 30 percent loss in buying power. I know you've heard that before, but the reality has come to the fore. Many of our school districts and I will tell you, many of them will not be able to exist another five years, compared to the last ten that they've come through. These, these are some critical issues that we have to face, they're coming to us in a number of ways, but I'll stay on your assessment." MR. ROSE said, "If we had an accurate assessment and we had an investment in curriculum and professional development, you'd have the makings of the accountability that you're looking for and that is what I want to propose to you today. If it is accountability that you want, based on student performance, an accurate measurement, an investment in curriculum development and professional development, at least some assistance because of the weight we're under in terms of static levels of funding would be a tremendous aid and I think it would bear results." Number 0573 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER referred to testimony by the Department of Education (DOE), school administrators and representatives of teachers saying that if we are going to test student competency to see if basic knowledge has been imparted by the time they have reached the end of the instructional period, we have to teach the teachers how to do this and we've got to develop these standards. He said it begs the questions of what have they been doing for the last fifty years. He questioned what has been taught if we have got to instruct teachers on how to teach the basic fundamentals of the four areas that this bill addresses. There was no doubt in his mind that systematically something has to be put into place, so that we don't inadvertently take advantage of kids. Kids who it appears haven't had the benefit of somebody sitting down and saying what is it we want them to learn, what is it we have to teach to get them to learn this and then test them on that. He said this appeared to be very basic training principles. If we haven't been doing that, he agreed we would have to set up some time to implement it. If we have to instruct teachers on this, he questioned where the teachers or administrators would have gone to school. Number 0677 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said these are the frustrations he is hearing from people in his district. It would appear, in order to test what we had hoped the school systems were providing, we need to start from scratch. Number 0719 MR. ROSE said, "I am sure Representative Porter we're not talking about your kids or my kids. Because our kids got some of that good education, but some of my kids have kids who went to school with them who didn't get that for a host of reasons. Society has changed the way we think, changed the way we live and it should change the way we instruct our kids. Our needs have changed and I think that if we are going to take a look at what, what kids need to be successful in the future, I think it begs the question do we have a set of standards that, that are, are appropriate today and not necessarily over the last fifty years. I will tell you that our school system has turned some of the brightest minds in the world, we have done a fine job. But the demographics, and the studies will show, that there are areas that we need to do some work in. There are areas of the population that are being unaddressed in our current system, we need to make some of these changes." MR. ROSE said, "So, I won't debate with you that, that you have the right to expect performance with all the money that has been paid in by the state in terms of an education. I think you have that right. The question has to be; how do we go about doing it to meet the needs of all the kids and that is where I'm coming from. I'd, I'd like to take a look at how we address the largest portion of our need for all the kids." Number 0791 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to a letter from a constituent taking him to task about this issue. The letter was someone who had graduated from the Anchorage school district. Eight, ten or eleven of her family members graduated from an Alaskan school district and have all become successful contributing members of society. There are students who are doing a wonderful job. He related his experiences of speaking to a high school in his district, the government classes. Invariably there are two or three kids who are asleep at their desk. He questioned if the $7,500 for their motel was worth it. He asked the students in the class whether in five years, they would be willing to pay an income tax so that someone can have a $7,500 desk to sleep behind. He shared Mr. Rose's concern about a blanket indictment regarding everyone who attends Alaska schools, there are some very good students. He questioned what we were going to do about those who choose not to accept their responsibility. If students can not achieve the level that is deemed appropriate, then they will have to live with those consequences. Those who are unable to meet those standards will receive help to be able to meet them. Number 0884 REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN asked why grades 4, 8 and 11 were chosen. Number 0895 MR. ROSE said, "I think it has been determined that those are the areas that would be appropriate for the measure to see if people are meeting the standard. The whole ideas here is to give an expectation to parents as to what their child will be expected to know at those appropriate grade levels of 4, 8 and 11. That should be the area that we, that we access." REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked who determined this. MR. ROSE said, "By the standards. There was a whole discussion behind the state standards that were put together that there should be areas that we should be able to determine. In the early discussion the ideas is what do, what level of a expectation should a parent have of their youngster. And a parent should be able to know that, that the grades levels of 4, 8 and 11 certain competencies, competencies should be attained and so that was, the, the the premise of my comment. It could be however you want to design it. The whole idea is that as you progress through the process, if there is an expectation we need some idea that we are meeting that expectation." Number 0950 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if there were tests that students currently take at those grade levels, for instance the California Achievement Test (CAT) test which is administered to fourth graders. Number 0961 MR. ROSE said, "There are some tests that are given right now throughout the school system, again the point is are they correlated to a set of standards. Well, there is, there is a lot of conjecture to that, there is a lot of discussion. The whole idea is that do we clearly understand what we expect from kids, have we designed a curriculum to instruct them in that area, have we prepared ourselves to deliver that level of instruction and how do we measure it. Those are the issues, you can put in whatever form that you want, but if you have an expectation, how do we assure ourselves that we have reached, that we reach the expectation and monitor the system to assure that people are progressing?" Number 0991 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said if we were to test competency levels early on in the educational progress, then it would give us an adequate time for remedial instruction. Allowing the system, at the fourth grade level, to find out where a student's weaknesses are and address those weaknesses and make sure they are still on track in grades 8 and 11, rather than testing them when they leave. Number 1047 MR. ROSE said, "yes, Mr. Chairman, that's the design, to find any deficiencies early." Number 1050 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that kids are able to learn more information earlier on in their development. Number 1061 MR. ROSE said, "Most of the research that I've read, is that the earlier you can start a child on the process of learning, the more success you will enjoy. That's, that is the reason behind the early childhood and focusing on the, on the lower grades. I would say that the reason that the fourth grade was picked is because that's about the period of time when you are going to be able to identify the people have gained the skills necessary to progress on successfully through the system. If they're deficient, in any way, the focus should be at that level rather than to eighth, eleventh grade or even upon exit." Number 1098 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN understood that if a child is not competent in reading at an early level, it places a huge obstacle in their ability to learn in many other areas throughout the rest of their education. If we are going to measure competency in the basics, it should be at an early age so that a good foundation can be laid for their ability to learn in the later years of school. Number 1136 MR. ROSE said, "yes, I concur. The issue of remediation, the sooner, the better. And in this case, absolutely if there is a deficiency at the lower ages, lower grades, that's where you should put your emphasis to try and remediate there, if they are going to take full advantage of what is offered throughout the process." Number 1152 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is a serious indictment of some school districts choosing social promotions and not requiring students to achieve a certain level of academic proficiency before they simply push the student to upper grades. Leaving in local control, we have to allow school districts to make mistakes if they choose to do so. Number 1172 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY said he assumed that having a statewide standard is a good idea. He asked why the state Board of Education has not adopted a state standard. Number 1196 MR. ROSE said, "We, we developed standards in a public process down through the years. It started under the Hickel Administration. It was great hesitancy to address standards for fear that they'd be mandated one day. The only way we could get the discussion to take place statewide was that this would voluntary. Now I understand the discomfort that causes a lot of people, voluntary standards. However, a lot of people have put a lot of time and they see the value in standards. I, I, I am concerned that the mandatory nature of these standards could cause some people to say, we knew it all along. Now I would say, from a personal point of view, whether they are mandated or not, I've, I've reviewed the standards, I've worked closely with them, I think they're good. The question is how we get there. Some would say through accredidations, some would say through an assessment, the end result is going to have to be an assessment somehow to see how we're doing. And so the suggestion I bring to you today is that if we, it's really student competency that we're after, let's a look at some progressive way that we can go about doing this in a systematic way that ensures that we accomplish that. I think early identification is critical. So, I don't, I guess I didn't answer your question. Why haven't they mandated, or why don't they have the standards?" Number 1254 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY repeated his question, assuming it is a good idea that we have a state standard, why is the legislature having to write a statute to tell the school board how to do a good job. He did not like to do that, he thought the school board would be far more knowledgeable in the area of requirements for our educational institutions than the legislature. Number 1275 MR. ROSE said, "I think the whole idea behind standards will, will, will hinge on an assessment; how do we measure and then if you want a positive response in terms of your measurement, what kind of an investment do we make in terms of the curriculum and professional development. I think we covered that earlier, but it really hinges on an assessment. Do we have an assessment that will accurately measure, that gives us an indication that this is how we move forward? In the absence of that, school districts may try, but there is no real universal measure, universal measure." Number 1306 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked how we could get from a time when we went into school, were told what was expected of us, how well we did was reflected in our report card, to where we are now. He was not casting aspersions on our school system. He cited an example of the California school system in the 1960s when they passed kids out of high school with a sixth grade reading comprehension. He questioned how we could get ourselves in a position where educators are asking the legislature to do something. He said it is up to the education experts to determine and implement standards. Number 1411 MR. ROSE said, "It's not my responsibility, it's our responsibility in terms of what we expect from our kids and how they get their education. I will, I'll sing this song everywhere I go. The point is, is that we're looking for people to blame, they're out there, they're everywhere. But the point is, is that parents have an interest, communities have an interest, the state has an interest, kids have an interest and what we are trying to do, I believe, what we're trying to do is open the gates to the American dream to as many people as we can squeeze through there. And if if you suggest that the standards have gone down, possibly so. But how many people are we moving through the gate? I think there's a correlation there." MR. ROSE said, "I would say to you that it is in all of our interests to ensure that we raise the standard. That we take a look at how we go about doing that, but I will tell you the school board at the local level can't do it by themselves nor can the teachers, nor can the principals, nor the superintendent, the state board, none of us can do it independently. It will take all of us working together on behalf of kids. And that is what I, I would ask you to to take, what is legislature's role, what role do you play in trying to put together a system as I have just described to you. What is my role, I want to assume that role. I think we all do. So, I guess it comes down to this, what is our role in trying to improve the quality of education for all the kids. I am ready to assume mine and I know you're ready to assume yours. With that, that would be my response to you. How we've lowered our standard? I don't know that we have. I think we're moving a lot of people through that gate." Number 1485 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if we want to move people through the gate by widening the gate, lowering the standards. He said we have standards, we know what they need to accomplish in order to succeed. Maybe the problem has been that we haven't demanded that this is the standard that we are going to have. He said from his personal experience, kids seem to rise to the level of expectation that is demanded of them or lower their output if a lower expectation is demanded. He asked if we have lowered the standard to the point that kids don't care. Number 1536 MR. ROSE said, "My response to that would be, perhaps, but I tend to think that we, we are moving a lot of people through here, a lot of them are very, very competent. The question is do we need to set a standard? I would say yes, and that is what I propose, I propose we set a standard." Number 1549 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said we are all in this together, we are not just looking towards you as a representative of the school district and saying that it is your problem, not our problem. Because we are in this together, the legislature is acting as a messenger of their constituency to identify a problem. Number 1568 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if there is a law or a statute that mandates that the university system admits any high school graduate in the state. Number 1580 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it was just a university policy that they have open admissions. Number 1586 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he is not interested in assigning blame, it just doesn't matter. He expressed curiosity as to why all of a sudden the legislature and the professionals are saying that it is a good idea that we have a standard in place. He questioned what the goal was in the past. Number 1614 MR. ROSE said, "It didn't just come up, standards have been around for some time. It is very hard to a, to get the public to embrace standards because I wouldn't say standards in general. We have come through a period of time when outcome based education was an issue and that pretty much set us back as a state in terms of what we could do, what the political will of the local constituencies were. So, so we've had some problems, but we've been talking about standards for some time. I think now that the issue has been on the table before the public for some time, it's, it's readily acceptable. These are some things that we have expectations of and we'd like to try and accomplish. The issue comes down to how do we implement this into the system." MR. ROSE said, "Dollars are involved, assurances are involved. The issue of accountability is, is surely here, performance. So, within all of that, I think we come up with some solutions, but Representative Vezey we didn't just come up with standards, they've been with us for some time, but it is very difficult to get a system that has been designed largely around A,B,C,D and F to change to any other way of thinking whether it be portfolios, or A,B,C or nobody fails or whatever measure you want to use. It's been a lot of rhetoric out here. The fact of the matter is, is that we know what kids need, can we get it to them, can we assure ourselves that they are getting it and that's, that's where the discussion is right now. I think that your bill is an important one because it addresses competency, how we go about that I would suggest we need to take a closer look so we're appropriate in our measure." Number 1679 REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE asked if we weren't suggesting outcome based education here. Isn't this saying that the state will mandate outcome based education. Number 1700 MR. ROSE said, "The term outcome based education has many connotations. I think what we're talking about here is we are going to provide an education. What is the outcome that we expect? Now in that sense, here is the standard, what would be the outcome of this education? So, I would agree with you, yes, but the connotation that this is some government effort to standardize everyone in the way they think, I think is unfair. Basically we know what kids need to be successful into the future and we're struggling right now with how we're going to provide that forum and still do it in the public forum. So, yes, I would agree with you. It is an outcome that we're looking for, but not with the negative connotation of outcome based education." Number 1739 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE commented that, basically, everyone is saying that we want standards established. This bill says one test and what Mr. Rose is proposing is three or four tests throughout the years and added that he is aware that it is more than just three tests. It is a question of establishing a system that can track students and their progress through the grade system. He asked if there was any specific language that would allow us to get from a singular exit exam to the type of system that people are recommending. Number 1788 MR. ROSE said, "I do have a design with the components that I, I spoke of earlier and I'm looking at, at the issue of accountability and investment in terms of what it is that we're trying to accomplish. As I mentioned earlier, it's not just the three exams, it's the standards that we align ourselves to, it's the curriculum that needs to be developed and it's the professional development to ensure that our people are well prepared to deliver this, now, it's, it's a cycle. It's a cycle. First of all it's the curriculum, professional development and assessment and the cycle starts again. I think it's critical that we, that we move in this area. We're doing some preliminary work right now. You understand that there are a number of proposals before you. The Department of Education is very concerned about the whole idea of accreditation. There's merit to that. That it will end up in some kind of an assessment and so, I would propose to you that, yes, there are some solutions. I would like to be able to bring them to you at some point in time. I'm trying to get some numbers put together. There are a lot of people who are very concerned about this effort. If we're going to move into an area of testing, let's do it in the most appropriate way that we can to accomplish what it is that we're set out to do, which is standards." Number 1841 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to a nationally syndicated comic strip which described the unwillingness to fail children because of possible psychological damage that might occur. He said this appears to be a national problem, it is our problem. He asked if things had been done in other places that appeared to work to alleviate this problem. Number 1930 MR. ROSE said, "There are other models that have been used. I, I would say because of the demographics of Alaska, there are some things that we could, that we could design into our program that would be Alaskan appropriate. I think it's really important. I wouldn't suggest that we recreate the wheel from scratch. We should take some of the things that work, but we should also examine if they're appropriate for us. And I would imagine that that would be part of the process. I do appreciate your comment. Referring to a comic strip, they're, they're abound in the nation. I think the issue is squarely before us as a nation; what is it that we expect our kids need to have into the future so we can maintain our world competitiveness. It's an issue. And closer to home, what do we have to have, in terms of an assurance, that our kids will be economically viable within the world that they're going to moving into. So, these are issues that need to be addressed somehow. We simply need, as government, have to have some baseline that we gage to see that the dollars we're spending are going to that cause. That people are being prepared for the future." Number 1971 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked, if that is the case, could he come to the legislature with two or three proven track records that will work toward what it sounds like we are all hoping to achieve. Number 1983 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there are 21 other states that have exit exams, there are examples. Number 1989 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked, if there are two or three avenues to get where we want to be, would Mr. Rose come back to the legislature and present the information. He could say that instead of spending the current amount per capita we're going to have to spend five times that much or two times that much. He asked for specific numbers regarding cost. Number 2009 MR. ROSE said, "I understand the issue is one of accountability, it's one of performance and I would like to be able to come back with you with some suggestions." Number 2016 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to written testimony located in the packets, an NEA-Alaska position statement and written testimony from the Department of Education (DOE) addressing concerns that they have regarding HB 146. Number 2031 JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska, (NEA- Alaska), wanted to address some concerns that he had. The first concern was testing. Every classroom in Alaska has teachers that evaluate and test. There are pre-tests, post-tests, testing is absolutely covered. Children are assessed every day in classrooms throughout Alaska. Children are retained. To retain a child in Alaska is a cumbersome process that is dictated by the parents. Parents make the final decision about whether or not the child should be retained, but agreed that the decision should be there. Number 2098 MR. CYR said the second issue is teacher inservice and whether or not teachers are prepared. He said teachers in Alaska are prepared. If his statistics were right, Alaska has the highest rate of masters degrees and advanced degrees as compared to any other state in the union. Inservice is still provided, it happens every year, in every district in Alaska and rightfully so. In a lot of districts, teaching staff are taking over the inservice mechanism to make sure that inservices provide what they need and what they feel is appropriate. He referred to police officers and said they go to training on a regular basis and he would say that is appropriate. Number 2149 MR. CYR said there are two things which are important to remember in a state mandated assessment. The first thing is that we have voluntary standards which are not statewide, we do not teach the same things from district to district. We teach different things in different ways at different levels. This state has made a decision that local control is more important than mandated statewide standards for education. This subject needs to be debated at a separate time. He agreed with Mr. Rose that there are a couple of ways to do this. We can give an exit test that will in effect mandate some kind of statewide standards or we can upfront say that at these particular checkpoints we believe this is what every child in Alaska should know. We need to be cognizant of those options. MR. CYR said the second major point is the disparity of resources. Some schools are new and contain libraries, equipment, et cetera and other schools do not have these resources. If we are going to look at some kind of blanket statewide system that mandates standards, we need to address the disparity question. MR. CYR said, if we look at what happens in schools around the nation and schools within Alaska, there are some things that weren't there when a lot of us were in school or at least they weren't very prevalent. Things such as drugs, alcohol, violence and non-parenting parents. Schools are the mirror of our society. This is why our jails have more people in them then they did in 1950. It is not because of the failure of schools, so much as the failure of society to identify those kinds of things that change that behavior. All of those things come into play. If we are really going to test kids at the other end, then he agreed that we need to back through the grades and look at those kinds of things. MR. CYR said it doesn't do any good to fail a senior. It gives the public some confidence that those people who did pass will do well, but those people who do pass will do well whether or not they take the test or not. Alaska has the highest per capita percentage of National Merit Scholars. Millions of dollars are given to seniors in the form of scholarships. Number 2287 MR. CYR referred to, "Money Magazine", which said that public education is the best buy in America today. There are a number of articles out there today. A book titled, The Manufactured Crisis, talks about how well public education is doing. The Bracey Report basically runs through the good things that are occurring in education. To present public education as a place where kids can't spell "school" misrepresents the truth. We are seeing some amazingly good things happening in schools against some horrible conditions. TAPE 97-15, SIDE B Number 0000 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said he heard the testimony to be that maybe we don't need the best of everything in order to have high standards of expectation. Number 0060 MR. CYR said you could put kids in a Quonset hut, give them the yellow pages and some of those kids will turn out to be professionals. He asked if this did justice to the bulk of children. There are kids who are going to succeed and will succeed because of us or in spite of their parents, pressures of society or in spite of whatever happens. He agreed that there has to be a balance of economics in this state, the money and resources should be used in a way that does the most for most of the students. Number 0131 MR. CYR said if we have been throwing money at education, he has not seen it. He referred to a report by the NorthWest Regional Labs, which NEA didn't commission, which talks about the effects of money on education. He said he could provide a copy for the committee. Number 0163 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if there was a divergence that occurred between kindergarten and twelfth grade which could determine whether some kids needed to learn how to conjugate verbs, while other kids did not need to know this. Number 0237 MR. CYR said to some extent we do that, especially in the urban areas. We have a wealth of programs ranging from advanced placement college prep, vocational technical programs to some basic programs. He did not feel that we did enough of this. We need to be careful, because he did remember the days of tracking kids. To some extent you got placed into the kind of program based on where your parents fit in economically. It didn't matter what kind of education you received because you weren't going to be much anyway. We have to make every opportunity available for all kids. Kids and their parents, at the high school level, make some pretty intelligent decisions. He would like to think that we can provide some quality vocational education programs for everyone, but added that those programs are expensive. Number 0331 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he wanted to open up discussion among the committee members. An adjustment needed to be made on HB 146 as far as the effective date was concerned. He said students are tested on a regular basis and said he took some offense to the notion that this would be a "thump test". Currently the bill calls for an effective date of July 1, 1997. It did not seem appropriate, to him, for next year's senior to suddenly find out that the rules have changed. He shared his confidence that the system will respond and the teachers, the parents and the students can respond. Parents have been left out in this discussion. There was a problem that was created some years ago, the "Lake Wobegone" syndrome where all the children are above average. A teacher had a great deal of temerity to suggest, to a parent, that their student wasn't performing at an acceptable level and should be retained. There were also instances where a parent wanted to retain their child and the school district said the student should be passed on to the next grade. CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, with local control ideas in mind, he is not as concerned as to how the school gets a student to a level of competency that we have a right to expect in high school graduates. Number 0510 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked at what year are we going to begin testing. Number 0537 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he would want to back up the testing to begin administering the exam in the year 2000, impacting this year's freshman class. He said a five year window would not be too generous, setting an effective date of 2002. Number 0561 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the year 2002 would be a good time to set the effective date. He said, despite the fact that there are 21 states that have exit examinations, the DOE is going to have to study what, where and how this test is going to be administered statewide. Number 0613 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, to be fair to the students, they need a high school period of time, four years. The DOE has a year to choose a vehicle, then the teachers know what it is that these students will be expected to know. The schools can begin to teach these students so that in four years they will have a clear grasp of what the expectations are. Number 0652 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE expressed concern that, if we establish this exit examination, DOE would make the test for the lowest common denominator. He asked if this issue should be dealt with as a legislature or as a committee. Number 0682 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he had some confidence that the DOE is going to want to do what is best for students. To create a test that is virtually unfailable, is not going to do the students any service at all. If this type of test was created, then the legislature would have to weigh in on the issue. There are people who spend their entire career creating tests. Writing a good test is a very challenging task and repeated that there are other states which give exit tests. We might have to adjust the test for Alaska. He expected that DOE would come back to the committee with a report as to what the test is and where we are in the process. Number 0761 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, recognizing the problem we have in the legislature of only being able to predict what we can control for the next two years, this bill might possibly be phased in as opposed to being set out for the year, 2002. As everyone mentioned, the first challenge is to establish what the standard is. What it is that we want a high school senior in this state to be able to do in the core subjects. He asked if we were going to have different levels of these standards or if we were going to have one size fits all. He referred to police standards where it was decided that one size did not fit all. It didn't fit because there were different expectations and levels of requirement for one type of law enforcement as opposed to another, usually because of the size of the community. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, if this test was going to be valuable at all, those kinds of decisions have to be made before you start down the road. We have to decide how we are going to develop a curriculum to test for this and what kinds of inservices are going to have to provided for teachers in order to get them to put things into their lesson plans. Number 0900 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he wasn't aware that there was a large problem within the state about local control. At least in the district that he represents, he did not think this would be a significant problem if all we are trying to do is say there are four basic core areas of knowledge that kids should be proficient in by the time they get through the system. If a school district wanted to emphasize something that is fine, but in these four areas students need to meet or exceed the standards we set. He said this is how he sees the balance between mandatory and voluntary standards. Number 0971 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would be happier having some presentation, this time next year, on the developed standards. It will answer the question of whether there is one or more standards, what they are going to be and what they anticipate the challenges will be in getting them implemented before we give an exit examination in the year 2000. Number 1032 ED EARNHART testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. He urged the committee to go easy on legislative mandates and do what Mr. Rose talked about regarding curriculum, standards and implementation. If these standards are working well, the problem with the high school diploma will be addressed. Students will not arrive to high school without preparation. To implement a test for high school graduation around the state would be extremely unfair and difficult. To have a standard curriculum and to eventually require that schools around the state utilize that curriculum around core subjects will allow you to have an exam. The exam should have already be taken care of, for most students, because they will be tested in those areas anyway. MR. EARNHART said support needs to be given to the DOE and they need to be more assertive regarding the standards of the local schools. This idea that local school districts can voluntary choose the standards will not work. One of the main reasons why it won't work is because we have people who move around a lot in Alaska. When these people are hurt, when they change from one school to another, a standard curriculum idea is great with an appropriate test to go with it. He said HB 146 should not go through at this time. Number 1178 MR. EARNHART said he has 14 years of experience working in education in five different states. He said Alaska does as good a job as some other states and better than some, but we still need to move on with improvements. Number 1219 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said basic knowledge is going to have to be established statewide no matter at what minimum level the test is set. He expressed concern that some students do not do well on tests. He referred to the bell shaped curve. Using the curve, one of the Blue Angels pilots would be a failure. There has to be a way that educational experts can determine what is going to be the best method or what the next best method would be to accomplish the things needed and present them to the legislature. Number 1333 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE referred to concerns about the mandatory nature of the exam. He suggested moving away from requiring the test, in order to receive a diploma, to requiring a test for an endorsement upon that diploma and in the high school transcripts. Students, who are intending to advance their education, can have recognition in their official transcripts while those who are not necessarily interested in going on to advance their academic career would not necessarily be subjected to the same test. Those students who pass their classes might not necessarily need to be tested. Moving towards an endorsement program would allow those students to show that they have a competency level in the core subjects. Number 1415 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he was in general agreement, but added that we need a set of standards so that students who graduate high school in Fairbanks, Anchorage or Fort Yukon are capable of the same type of competencies. He did not want to become flexible around this issue. For those people whose only aspiration is ditch digging, they don't need a high school diploma. People need a high school diploma and a basic competency to fully participate in our society. Number 1486 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said that people have different levels of competencies in different areas. If we don't go the endorsement diploma route, then he would propose an amendment to delete mathematics. He cited his difficulties in the area of mathematics. Number 1528 CHAIRMAN BUNDE expected the DOE to create a basic test. If the committee wanted to entertain the notion of an endorsed diploma, an honors degree, he was perfectly willing to entertain such an idea. The basic competencies are not aimed at people who are destined for college, it is just the basic literacy level that we expect of all members of our society to have. So, they can fill out the job application for the ditch digger, or they can fill out the job application for BP (Alaska) Inc., or they can fill out an application for college. Number 1558 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he agreed with eventually having some type of specialty endorsement whether it is for mathematics, science, a foreign language or something else. He would also support the notion that we should have a certain level of expectation, but perhaps we should let some areas of the state have a longer time to reach that expectation. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER referred to a luncheon on mining where a speaker talked about the impact of resource development in their particular area of the state. The speaker said they were successful in getting a large business to come into their region and discuss plans for shareholder hire and local hire through the cooperation of this business, the Red Dog Mine. A year or so into the operation, they found that folks available for work did not have the basic education to meet the basic needs of the entry level positions for mining. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said this area of the state has since raised their standards, provided the motivation for their kids and families to meet those standards because here was an opportunity that needed this level of education. The area has reportedly gone from a fourth or fifth grade level of competency in their high school graduates up to ninth or tenth grade level, because there was some carrot out there that made it worth it. Some school districts have not seen that carrot and have seen no real incentive for reaching those standards. He suggested an assessment to find out where we are at be done first, followed by a forum that must be met, within a period of time, to get people up to the standard. Number 1688 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the incentive for a school district, to help their students get to the level where they would be functionally literate and meet the demands of the jobs available to them, would be severely impacted by parents. Especially if the school district would do this assessment and find out that 20 percent, 30 percent, 40 to 50 percent of their high school graduates would not meet this level of expectation. He suggested that there is a carrot and a stick. Number 1733 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER agreed and added that, at some point in time, they are going to have to meet this level of expectation, but let's make it doable. Number 1772 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the discussion is on an effective date of 2002, but perhaps modifying that date based on what Representative Porter suggested, a multiple effective date. In July 1, 1998, we would see the testing vehicle that the DOE develops. The sophomore class of that year would then know what the expectations were that they would have to meet in order to receive their high school diploma. He asked the committee if that should be included in a committee substitute or if this could be done as a conceptual amendment. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested a committee substitute. Number 1816 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would like to hear, from the folks who would be implementing this test, the impression of what timing would be required. Recognizing that we would want to push people to do it as soon as possible, it would be important to find out what timing would be needed to integrate the curriculum and lesson plans, to make sure the test was being taught in schools. Number 1851 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN concurred. There are students, on course in high school, who can't balance a checkbook. If we give them the expectations in 1998, there might be too much ground to cover to pass that test. We would probably have to fall back several years in order to start moving this student forward. We need to find out how far back the experts feel they need to go, before they start implementing the test. Number 1878 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he has been lobbied by people saying they want to do a pre-kindergarten screening. He understood the concern, but at some point you have to take off the bandage and you can do it quickly or slowly. He said the education community is going to want to go pre-kindergarten. CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this bill would be held until Tuesday, March 11, 1997. He would introduce a committee substitute with a multiple effective date. One date would be relatively soon within a year and a half requiring the DOE to have the test prepared. Four years after that time will allow someone in the eighth grade to prepare themselves to successfully pass the test if they want a high school diploma.
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